Frode Berg wrote:
>
> What are good ways to avoid the gliders?
> Do they have some sort of good/excellent lookout techniques, or are they
> just flying around having a good time?

Of course we are having a good time flying around, after all, that's the
whole point of soaring!

More to the point: Second, no, glider pilots don't have a special
lookout technique, other than being paranoid and knowing how poorly
visible we are. I'm pretty sure the glider you passed has seen you long
before. (Of course you shouldn't bet your life at it. Besides, gliders
have the right of way.) The only thechnique that works is look, look,
look. Glider pilot students learn very early to forget about cockpit
instruments, to fly by horizon and butt and to permanently look out,
look out, look out. That's the whole trick.

But first and most important: Try to avoid regions where dense glider
traffic is to be expected. Flying through southeastern Germany at FL55
when there is some thermal activity is a very bad idea. This is one of
the most densly populated areas, gliderwise, and FL55 is more or less
the most active altitude band. Your best bet is to climb into airspace
C, but you don't always want to do so. Try to think like a glider pilot.
Try to know the most popular glider areas and avoid them. Try to
recognize thermals. Be aware that if you see a glider, the probability
is high that there are others in the vicinity you don't see, one glider
seldom flies alone. If you see a glider gaggle, make a big tour around
it. There are always more gliders in the air than you will see.

Stefan

A question - Can glider pilots hear powered aircraft in the area, or
does the slipstream mask the sound?
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.


"Stefan" <"stefan"@mus. INVALID .ch> wrote in message
...
> Frode Berg wrote:
> >
> > What are good ways to avoid the gliders?
> > Do they have some sort of good/excellent lookout techniques, or
are they
> > just flying around having a good time?
>
> Of course we are having a good time flying around, after all, that's
the
> whole point of soaring!
>
> More to the point: Second, no, glider pilots don't have a special
> lookout technique, other than being paranoid and knowing how poorly
> visible we are. I'm pretty sure the glider you passed has seen you
long
> before. (Of course you shouldn't bet your life at it. Besides,
gliders
> have the right of way.) The only thechnique that works is look,
look,
> look. Glider pilot students learn very early to forget about cockpit
> instruments, to fly by horizon and butt and to permanently look out,
> look out, look out. That's the whole trick.
>
> But first and most important: Try to avoid regions where dense
glider
> traffic is to be expected. Flying through southeastern Germany at
FL55
> when there is some thermal activity is a very bad idea. This is one
of
> the most densly populated areas, gliderwise, and FL55 is more or
less
> the most active altitude band. Your best bet is to climb into
airspace
> C, but you don't always want to do so. Try to think like a glider
pilot.
> Try to know the most popular glider areas and avoid them. Try to
> recognize thermals. Be aware that if you see a glider, the
probability
> is high that there are others in the vicinity you don't see, one
glider
> seldom flies alone. If you see a glider gaggle, make a big tour
around
> it. There are always more gliders in the air than you will see.
>
> Stefan
>

You can most certainly hear other aircraft. You can hear just about
everything. My first glider ride was at El Mirage, CA. From 10,000 feet
up I could hear the air horn on a Santa Fe locomotive. I actually heard
two F-105 Weary Weasels heading back to George AFB. It's a whole
different world in a glider.

Dave Reinhart


Gene Seibel wrote:

> A question - Can glider pilots hear powered aircraft in the area, or
> does the slipstream mask the sound?
> --
> Gene Seibel
> Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
> Because I fly, I envy no one.
>
> "Stefan" <"stefan"@mus. INVALID .ch> wrote in message
> ...
> > Frode Berg wrote:
> > >
> > > What are good ways to avoid the gliders?
> > > Do they have some sort of good/excellent lookout techniques, or
> are they
> > > just flying around having a good time?
> >
> > Of course we are having a good time flying around, after all, that's
> the
> > whole point of soaring!
> >
> > More to the point: Second, no, glider pilots don't have a special
> > lookout technique, other than being paranoid and knowing how poorly
> > visible we are. I'm pretty sure the glider you passed has seen you
> long
> > before. (Of course you shouldn't bet your life at it. Besides,
> gliders
> > have the right of way.) The only thechnique that works is look,
> look,
> > look. Glider pilot students learn very early to forget about cockpit
> > instruments, to fly by horizon and butt and to permanently look out,
> > look out, look out. That's the whole trick.
> >
> > But first and most important: Try to avoid regions where dense
> glider
> > traffic is to be expected. Flying through southeastern Germany at
> FL55
> > when there is some thermal activity is a very bad idea. This is one
> of
> > the most densly populated areas, gliderwise, and FL55 is more or
> less
> > the most active altitude band. Your best bet is to climb into
> airspace
> > C, but you don't always want to do so. Try to think like a glider
> pilot.
> > Try to know the most popular glider areas and avoid them. Try to
> > recognize thermals. Be aware that if you see a glider, the
> probability
> > is high that there are others in the vicinity you don't see, one
> glider
> > seldom flies alone. If you see a glider gaggle, make a big tour
> around
> > it. There are always more gliders in the air than you will see.
> >
> > Stefan
> >

I went up for an instrument practice session at my home base of Cambridge
(UK) today. The weather made for two closely related problems: it was bumpy
as hell, and there were gliders everywhere. At one point the Cambridge
controller warned of 17 gliders in sight from the tower. My safety pilot
earned his seat.

So the solution? Wear foggles -- it relieves the stress. :-)

Julian Scarfe

The best way is probably to get your glider rating. Then you will know
where gliders are likely to be.

Mike
MU-2


"Frode Berg" > wrote in message
...
> Hi!
>
> I recently did a trip from Oslo to Prague in a 180 Arrow, and on the way
> back home through southeastern Germany, I noticed a dense amount of
gliders
> all over the place.
> When they are banking, theyre quite easy to see, but flying straight at
you,
> or away almost impossible, at least when in front of white ckouds.
>
> ATC didn't seem to know about them either. I noticed though that after
> asking ATC about the max altitude for the gliders, after saying that i saw
> auite a lot of them in the area, he started giving pilots info of "there
> seems to be glider activity".
>
> What are good ways to avoid the gliders?
> Do they have some sort of good/excellent lookout techniques, or are they
> just flying around having a good time?
> I saw one to my left at approx same altitude as me (FL055) at one point,
and
> he was climbing, and banking and I was using quite some time looking out
for
> him as I passed him, so I was missing out a bit in front. Not sure if he'd
> seen me.
>
> Anyway, just looking for some "see and avoid" tips for these unpowered
> planes.
>
> Frode
>
>

dhb wrote:
>
> Where?
> In the US cloud flying would be highly unlikely.

The original poster asked about southestern Germany. Cloud flying is
allowed in many European countries, Germany included. Besides, it's fun.

Stefan

dhb wrote:
>
> Where?
> In the US cloud flying would be highly unlikely.

Central New Jersey, just north of Solberg. I haven't seen it for a while,
but the glider operation in that area moved some years ago.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

Stefan wrote:
> dhb wrote:
>
>>Where?
>>In the US cloud flying would be highly unlikely.
>
>
> The original poster asked about southestern Germany. Cloud flying is
> allowed in many European countries, Germany included. Besides, it's fun.

You have to file a flightplan in Germany if you want to fly in clouds. Or
did that change?

Dieter Kleinschmidt wrote:
>
> You have to file a flightplan in Germany if you want to fly in clouds.

Theoretically, yes. Practically, everybody knows that this is not
feasible. Just ask ATCfor a clearance, and your request will be
understood as an airborne flight plan. Whether you get a clearance to
enter cloud or not depends on the actual traffic situation and the mood
of the controller. (Controllers that are glider pilots themselves tend
to be more cooperativ than others.)

For those who don't know German airspace: Roughly spoken, between 2500
ft AGL and FL 100 airspace is E, above it's C. So the controller can
easily keep a portion of it free of motorised IFR traffic.

Stefan

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> > In the US cloud flying would be highly unlikely.
>
> Central New Jersey, just north of Solberg. I haven't seen it for a while,
> but the glider operation in that area moved some years ago.
>
I used to fly in that area including a few times at Solberg. Very, very few
gliders flown there have anything beyond a whiskey compass and a yaw string
for cloud flying. Though it is possible to cloud fly with such equipment, I
never heard a NJ glider pilot talk about it around the keg.

Having said that, I'm sure someone at sometime has done some glider cloud
flying in NJ. And there's no question that a building Tstorm is a great
source of lift.

But of course, power pilots avoid flying into building Tstorms.

And it is sometimes possible to climb up the side of a cumulous cloud.

I would still suggest that flying above cloud base is an effective way to
avoid glider activity here in the states.

"Gene Seibel" > wrote:

>A question - Can glider pilots hear powered aircraft in the area, or
>does the slipstream mask the sound?

Yes, you can hear powered aircraft, but only when it's
pretty close. Nothing gets my heart thumping faster than
hearing a prop getting louder and louder and being unable to
spot the aircraft. If you turn, you are more visible, and
may be able to see the approaching aircraft, but turning
also presents a much larger impact cross section and may
turn you directly into the path of the oncoming aircraft.
..
Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

"Maule Driver" > wrote:

>I used to fly in that area including a few times at Solberg.
> Though it is possible to cloud fly with such equipment, I
>never heard a NJ glider pilot talk about it around the keg.

NJ is pretty active for gliders. There's a circular race
course surrounding Allentown, NJ and another from
Blairstown (Del. Water Gap) to Wurtsboro/Middletown NY. On
any good weekend there will be 6-12 gliders racing on those
courses.

>I would still suggest that flying above cloud base is an effective way to
>avoid glider activity here in the states.

I agree. The majority of time gliders will be within 2500'
below the cumulus clouds or close to a marked gliderport
(U.S. sectional). The exception is on strong windy days,
when they may climb in front of the clouds, or find a wave.
Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

I was really glad to hear that the weekend racing has caught on. Some years
ago, I took a shot at it by organizing the "Task du Jour" out of
Blairstown. I think Eric ____ ran with the idea for awhile. Sounds like a
very successful program is running now.

If I was NJ, I'd probably still be flying gliders. A great flying
community.

"Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
...
> "Maule Driver" > wrote:
>
> >I used to fly in that area including a few times at Solberg.
> > Though it is possible to cloud fly with such equipment, I
> >never heard a NJ glider pilot talk about it around the keg.
>
> NJ is pretty active for gliders. There's a circular race
> course surrounding Allentown, NJ and another from
> Blairstown (Del. Water Gap) to Wurtsboro/Middletown NY. On
> any good weekend there will be 6-12 gliders racing on those
> courses.
>
> >I would still suggest that flying above cloud base is an effective way to
> >avoid glider activity here in the states.
>
> I agree. The majority of time gliders will be within 2500'
> below the cumulus clouds or close to a marked gliderport
> (U.S. sectional). The exception is on strong windy days,
> when they may climb in front of the clouds, or find a wave.
> Todd Pattist
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
> ___
> Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
> Share what you learn.

Here in the western US, there are tons of gliders getting ridge lift in the
late afternoons. They go darn high also. Someone told me up to FL300.

Last week we were saw a ton of them coming into Minden, NV.

if you can hear it... it has already passed.. or so close that avoidance can
not happen, to late to hear, look, react

BT

"Gene Seibel" > wrote in message
arthlink.net...
> A question - Can glider pilots hear powered aircraft in the area, or
> does the slipstream mask the sound?
> --
> Gene Seibel
> Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
> Because I fly, I envy no one.
>
>
> "Stefan" <"stefan"@mus. INVALID .ch> wrote in message
> ...
> > Frode Berg wrote:
> > >
> > > What are good ways to avoid the gliders?
> > > Do they have some sort of good/excellent lookout techniques, or
> are they
> > > just flying around having a good time?
> >
> > Of course we are having a good time flying around, after all, that's
> the
> > whole point of soaring!
> >
> > More to the point: Second, no, glider pilots don't have a special
> > lookout technique, other than being paranoid and knowing how poorly
> > visible we are. I'm pretty sure the glider you passed has seen you
> long
> > before. (Of course you shouldn't bet your life at it. Besides,
> gliders
> > have the right of way.) The only thechnique that works is look,
> look,
> > look. Glider pilot students learn very early to forget about cockpit
> > instruments, to fly by horizon and butt and to permanently look out,
> > look out, look out. That's the whole trick.
> >
> > But first and most important: Try to avoid regions where dense
> glider
> > traffic is to be expected. Flying through southeastern Germany at
> FL55
> > when there is some thermal activity is a very bad idea. This is one
> of
> > the most densly populated areas, gliderwise, and FL55 is more or
> less
> > the most active altitude band. Your best bet is to climb into
> airspace
> > C, but you don't always want to do so. Try to think like a glider
> pilot.
> > Try to know the most popular glider areas and avoid them. Try to
> > recognize thermals. Be aware that if you see a glider, the
> probability
> > is high that there are others in the vicinity you don't see, one
> glider
> > seldom flies alone. If you see a glider gaggle, make a big tour
> around
> > it. There are always more gliders in the air than you will see.
> >
> > Stefan
> >
>
>

What you are referring to is wave lift or lee mountain wave. While it can
be found in various locations around the US it is not that common because it
generally takes 1) a mountain and 2) specific wind conditions. (Ridge lift
is also generated by a mountain or ridgle line and a perpindicular wind but
the best ridge lift is found at tree top heights. Very little conflict with
most power traffic most of the time.)

I've flown Minden. They have exceptional wave conditions - some of the best
in the US. When gliders go into Class A, they need a clearance (wave
window) so there is separation services for IFR traffic. Thermal conditions
in the Sierras frequently reach the 15 - 18 thousand foot levels and wave
conditions easily reach those heights and above. So while flying above the
lift will still work, it's not real practical for most light a/c. Clear
skies enable see and avoid and the advice to stay away from the bases of
large Cu still applies.

I don't have a lot of time in the Sierras but there is a bit of natural
separation that tends to take place. Below mountain top heights, the
gliders tend to fly up against and directly over the mountain peaks (best
lift). The power traffic tends towards the valleys and passes. Power
traffic is usually trying to avoid the 'turbulence' that gliders are seeking
out. Gotta look out for dyed in the wool glider guys in powered a/c who
can't stand to pass up all those energy sources..
"JerryK" > wrote in message
...
> Here in the western US, there are tons of gliders getting ridge lift in
the
> late afternoons. They go darn high also. Someone told me up to FL300.
>
> Last week we were saw a ton of them coming into Minden, NV.
>
>

>From:

>Where?
>In the US cloud flying would be highly unlikely.

I never flew a sailplane up into a cloud---had a few drop down around
me---hahahaha---Mac